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Post by Thy Dungyeon Maestyr on Dec 17, 2018 15:59:59 GMT -8
I'm intrigued but they left out the monster, as far a I can tell. Might get to watching it sometime anyways.
Oh yeah, so getting back to an earlier aspect of this discussion, I wanted to say I really have spent a lot of time thinking about what made Hellraiser so cool and wondering if there was a way to get that in my own writing and art. Over the last several years, when I think about stuff like that, I take that thinking in a kind of abstract direction.
For example, when I think - what is it i liked about action movies, back when that was my thing? Action movies are a kind of power fantasy, about how you can apply your force of will to overcome the things that suck in the world. You exert your will via a power of some kind, be it kung fu or gun skills or psychic powers. In moments when the will seems more important than the weapon, when the actor really pushes the sense of their character's desire, that the movies feel extra cool.
So back to Hellraiser. Horror, while it sometimes overlaps with action, is fundamentally different. In a lot of horror stories, the only goal of the protagonist is to survive until the evil plays itself out. Hellraiser is even weirder because the horror is brought to the physical world by weirdos being horny on evil.
What's cool or compelling in all of that? Especially what I'd like to know is how can I make a character or monster as iconic as Pinhead. Or make a story as morbidly amusing as Hellraiser without being so edgy that the grodiness outweighs the fun.
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Post by Trinity on Dec 18, 2018 11:12:41 GMT -8
You're actually speaking to a lot of my thoughts there, too. After watching the Hellraiser films, I was totally enamored with the world and the story that Clive was trying to tell. I say 'trying' because after Hellraiser 2 things were botched hardcore for that sweet dolla. I read The Hellbound Heart, The Scarlet Gospels, and the comics he put out since then, and everything is SO much more diverse than what's shown in the movies. It does play on gross-out horror a bit in TSG, but I didn't mind it so much because visualizing the world, what Clive had presented as his own interpretation of Hell, it made sense. When I started writing my game I wanted to create something similar. It's crazy to think how the three of us were all inspired by the same thing when creating RP's. I was really inspired by many of the themes present in his writing. You don't get that moral gray-area in the movies as much as you do in his books and comics. Cenobites don't have a sense of black-and-white like humans do. From the protagonists perspective, they're evil because they look scary and torture/kill people. But they weren't created with a sense of right and wrong, so the idea that what they do is considered evil doesn't connect with them. Pinhead says many times he wants to 'experience the flesh.' What that means, for the most part, is up for interpretation because he never explicitly says what he means. That's what I mean when I say I love the 'demons to some, angels to others' bit, because there very well could be someone who enjoys the Cenobites treatment. And similarly, I think they enjoy what they do, too. ~~~~~MAJOR SPOILER AHEAD~~~~~~ In the comics, Pinhead laments that after an eternity of the flesh, he's grown tired. So, he embarks on a journey to become human. To Cenobites, being human is the ultimate pain, because while they inflict pain of the flesh, humans can experience other kinds of pain, too. Cenobites don't feel the way humans do, and knowing that, Pinhead wants to feel a new sweet suffering. (that was my interpretation anyway, i could be completely wrong.) It's actually kind of sad, because at one point Deepthroat confronts him and says 'i knew your plan. i would have taken flesh too, and grown old with you.' I think that's what makes it such a cool story. That fuzzy in-between where yes, it could be argued what they do is obscene and wrong, but at the same time they've never known those concepts in the traditional human sense, so to them it's a moot point. Applying human standards to non-human beings makes it harder for them to be condemned. At least, that's how I see it. And I love that concept. Empirically flawed characters who are a product of their environment, and exist on some otherwordly plane where our chaos is their normal. How do you judge something that literally operates in a different reality than you? All just my opinion. I feel like when you dive into his other work the world opens up and feels so much more developed. I don't think you get that feeling from the movies alone.
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Post by Thy Dungyeon Maestyr on Dec 18, 2018 15:17:38 GMT -8
I should really read that extra stuff, especially the books. Kelly also told me Hellbound Heart was good. He told me the description of Pinhead in the book is more androgynous / bejewelled, which intrigues me.
Personally I'm not a sadist or masochist, so I find it had to relate to the underlying themes there except in an abstract way. There's long been association of the ideas of pleasure and pain and sex and death in literature, at least back to shakespeare. I think instincts are very unspecific impulses and that we feel our way through to implementing them. Like, you don't know how to have sex with another person by instinct, you just know you want to do something there (unless yr ace or whatever).
Society tells us what to do, but without that, we could feel things out. But that unspecific feeling - I want something from a person, want to do something to them, to feel them, to ... what? I think when that gets bent it turns into stuff like sadomasochism.
In the Hellraiser universe, souls are real, spirits are real, and the feelings of sexuality and violence can have metaphysically freaky manifestations. Clive is using art to represent real feelings dramatically. It's kinda like melodrama, where the tears and screams are dialed up to silly levels. But instead it's sadomasochistic sexuality that's being dialed up to silly levels. And while not into S&M, the art of that makes the feeling accessible to me, at least as a tourist, maybe.
Maybe that's something to do with it. Even without that, as you say, it's fun to dive into an extensively developed fantasy horror setting.
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Post by ◊◊BLOODBEASTER◊◊ on Dec 18, 2018 15:25:40 GMT -8
The Hellbound Heart is interesting, because the movie is a VERY good adaptation. There's not much from the story that is better/not included in the movie. I did find the description of the cenobites interesting, like pinhead has jewels on the ends of his pins and sounds like 'an excited girl.' Changing the Kirstie character into a daughter instead of a coworker was a good idea, as her role in the book is a little odd. Probably really helped that Barker directed the movie, so he could adapt his own work so well. Sad that Frank didn't have a sexy moustache in the movie though.
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Post by ◊◊BLOODBEASTER◊◊ on Dec 19, 2018 14:48:20 GMT -8
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Post by ◊◊BLOODBEASTER◊◊ on Dec 19, 2018 15:22:34 GMT -8
By the way, Trinity , can you send us your contact info? Are PMs here good? It'd be cool to have you in on the next hellish adventure.
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Post by ∆§Indea§∆ on Dec 19, 2018 21:18:44 GMT -8
Whooo!! Thanks Bloodbeaster!! Fabulous game!
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Post by Thy Dungyeon Maestyr on Dec 19, 2018 21:25:13 GMT -8
woop woop, finished before april!
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Post by Kristi is prescribed skeletons on Dec 19, 2018 21:35:34 GMT -8
Last post in from me. We did iiitt!
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Post by Dr. Jar on Dec 20, 2018 22:45:50 GMT -8
A chilling end! Bravo Bravo!!!
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Post by ◊◊BLOODBEASTER◊◊ on Dec 21, 2018 2:44:47 GMT -8
Yay thanks everyone! Hope you all have splendid holidaze and I'm sure we'll see you again soon. Feel free to stay chattin as u like, all season 'round.
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Post by Trinity on Dec 21, 2018 9:29:16 GMT -8
Heya! sorry for the late reply, holiday season is always crazy here. PM's are good, id love be here for your next game.
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Post by Thy Dungyeon Maestyr on Dec 21, 2018 21:21:54 GMT -8
How's everyone's howlidays going?
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Post by ∆§Indea§∆ on Dec 21, 2018 22:40:14 GMT -8
Working so much they don’t really feel like holidays but my sister is coming up and we’re going to see this amazing drag queen called Sasha Velour. Looking forward to the food though and seeing some family on xmas
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Post by Kristi is prescribed skeletons on Dec 21, 2018 23:59:23 GMT -8
I finally got to go to the big winter solstice bon fire. Yaayyy dancing and friends and fun.
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